I'm a little amazed how normally germophobic people suspend their fears during a make-out. In the same way that we suspend our apprehensions about nudity in sexual and locker-room situations, it is temporarily okay to lick saliva during a makeout when we would never for a million years sip on a glass of saliva.
In the same way, our hands and our fingers are probably the dirtiest part of our bodies (Perhaps feet? I guess that's to be left to a future episode...) and yet, during a makeout, the insertion of fingers into a mouth signifies someting strange. It's an acceptance of who we are by our partner regardless of our humanity.
Look, says your partner, I know you have dirt and germs. But right now, I don't care. I so accept you and who you are that I will swallow you.
That is incredibly affirming. And my immediate sensation the first time it happened to me was that I did not feel worthy of it. I'm just me.
When I was a kid, I used to love listening to Barenaked Ladies (as I still do from time to time). Many of the songs off of Stunt reminded me of my interactions with girls (In The Car in particular). I couldn't help but think, though, how strange it was that these very not handsome men would have experiences so similar to mine. Are ugly people also accepted by women? And if so, is it the same?
And it is. Part of the magic of kissing is that our flaws, physical and emotional, are forgiven briefly. Like a wetter Eucharist.
When I had just started high school, I was terrified of kissing. I knew I liked girls, but the very idea of actually kissing freaked me out. Today I look back and wonder, what's the big deal?
But clearly it still is a big deal. The physical act may be nothing frightening, but it means something. It communicates: I am attracted to you and here is a part of me that not everyone gets to see.
Not only does kissing lose this meaning if you shared it with everyone, but there are some people for whom it would be terrible if you meant those things about certain people, like a brother or a parent. This is why there are definitely verboten.
However, I am a firm believer that life is too short to express and experience all the beautiful and strange wrinkles that can unfold in the universe. Maybe I shouldn't explore a romance with my best friend's ex. Maybe I shouldn't explore a romance with my boss. Maybe I shouldn't explore a romance with someone who's giant cultural differences or from mine virtually preclude any meaningful communication. Maybe I shouldn't explore a romance with a much older woman.
But, the power of making out is that it can be a quick taste, like the small sampling spoons at an ice cream store. It won't fill you up or satiate any real hunger. But for a moment, you can become filled with what it would be like to be with someone else. And a moment later, you're back to normal. So you can experience, just for a moment, what it would be like to be with a verboten.
Now of course, there are downsides. Disappointments and miscommunication abound when people get their hopes up and those hopes don't come to be. Of course there are also the confused and hurt feelings of others.
But as long as you don't get carried away and as long as both people are on the same page, there's something liberating about kissing a verboten. It tells you they wanted it, too, and that though the forces of society may keep you apart, but for one secret moment, there is no society. There are only the two of you and in that moment you win.
The Debate: Is it embarrassing to get a hickey? Greg says it's not. He's proud to have a badge of honor, proof that he hooked up with a pretty girl. GSG points out that unattractive girls also can leave hickeys, so it's not always clear that a hickey is a sign of having kissed a pretty girl. Greg says his coworkers may have seen him with the pretty girl beforehand, but I point out that if you were spotted with your companion, the hickey is superfluous. Greg says that there's difference between the accomplishment of getting a girl and getting a girl to suck on your neck. GSG points out that giving a hickey does not imply that the girl did anything beyond first base and thus is not really a source of additional pride, but I added that the wildness needed to give a guy a hickey implies that a girl is adventurous and interested enough to do other things.
Bryce says he's embarrassed because people at work the next day can see a hickey. I figure that the problem Bryce sees is that he's forced to acknowledge his previous night's behavior in contexts where it may be inappropriate, whereas without a hickey, he is free to be sexual in one context and the conservative where it is more appropriate. I then reason that this is the thrill of hickeys: that they are a dangerous experiment in the making out moment where you not only incorporate the moment in your making out, but incorporate the future, thereby raising the stakes. I would say it is akin to drunk dialing or incorporating sober people into drunk plans: by mixing your drunk moment with a sober universe, you seem even wilder by comparison.
We all agree that not only is it almost impossible to cover up hickeys with makeup, it is weird for a guy to wear makeup.
We then turned to who gives more hickeys, guys or girls? Bryce noted that he gives more hickeys than he receives. GSG noted that hickeys are more of a guy thing than a girl thing to do. I felt the opposite, but I never really gave hickeys.
A brief discussion followed about whether you can tell if you are receiving a hickey. Greg and I agreed that you could feel someone nuzzling on you. GSG noted that you could not be sure if it would result in a hickey until a mark appeared later.
The next subject up for debate: Are people in their late 20s and 30s too old for hickeys? I was reminded of an episode of Full House when DJ got a hickey that she needed to hide from Bob Saget. I have since associated hickeys with the sexual activity of people DJ's age and thus felt odd when I get one. (I cannot find this episode, and am possibly confusing it with this epsiode of Who's The Boss).
Bryce mentioned that the thrill of hickeys is that getting one lets you indulge in the nostalgia of high school. GSG mentioned that she never got a hickey in high school and, honestly, I don't believe I did either. However its association in our culture with juvenile romance is stronger than my association with actual events that took place. It's a simulacrum in the Baudrillard sense.
Bryce then asked if the panel would take a hickey in exchange for a pleasurable sensation, like having your partner blow into your ear. I contend this is essentially what all hickeys are: a tradeoff of pleasure for a physical mark. I prove this by asking if anyone on the panel has ever started receiving a hickey and pushed their partner away. Simultaneously, everyone answered "no." The truth is that it's pleasurable and we don't consciously care about the consequences enough in the moment to push it away.
Bryce mentioned, however, that he has kissed girls that declined hickeys because they would interfere with their job. I asked what jobs would specifically forbid hickeys. Bryce suggested corporate gigs and Greg suggested a teen abstinence counselor. Bryce also suggested that a hickey would inhibit you from being able to play the field the next day (a suggestion I disagree with upon reflection).
GSG proposes that you don't always want to explain your make-outs to everyone, which hickeys require. Thus, the problem with hickeys is that they force you to acknowledge making out to everyone when you may not want to. I admitted an occasion of infidelity where I got to come up with a fun lie about where the hickey came from.
Greg finished up the discussion by mentioning the sad practice of artificial hickeys by means of a vacuum cleaner instead of a partner.
Review: The panel reviewed where on the body one could give or receive hickeys.
Taint – Can you?
Greg explained what a taint is. I guessed you could not make a hickey appear there but you could do the necessary mouthwork to make one happen. Bryce reasoned that, since it’s just a flap of skin, that it was possible. GSG pointed out that trying to give a hickey to someone on their taint would result in them getting kicked in the face. Bryce pointed out that a kick in the face is a terrible response and someone would need to be fairly insensitive to consider that appropriate. Greg pointed out that someone would need to trim his or her body hair in the taint region to make it hospitable for hickeymaking. Bryce and Greg agreed that “taints are pretty crazy, you’ve got to tame it.”
Neck
Very standard, but I note that courtesy is to put it just below the collar line so it can be hidden at work the next day. GSG pointed out that “below the collar” is not really a neck. The clavicle region is ideal for hiding a hickey the next day, GSG argued, but Bryce responded by saying that if someone is going for hickey, they may as well go in all the way and get or give one somewhere visible. Greg likes when people who don’t want a visible hickey get one. I eventually got everyone to agree on something I found more important: the neck is a pleasurable place to give and receive a hickey.
ACL
I don’t think an ACL hickey is possible. Greg points out that he will have a scar on his ACL after he recovers from his surgery, but I point out that scars and hickeys are different. Hickeys go away. Greg, however, says that he would very much a girl to suck on his ACL until a hickey appeared.
Boob
I asked GSG if she had ever had a boob hickey, and she said no. She explained that when men get aggressive with their mouths on her breasts that she feels inclined to push them away because the boob is very sensitive and the hickeymaking process there would be painful. A girl would need to be passed out or a masochist to enjoy receiving a boob hickey, she explained. I found it strange that biting a boob would be painful, but not a neck considering we need necks to breathe. GSG got more specific: the nipple region would indeed be incredibly painful to have bitten hickey-style.
I then asked about the top-boob region, away from the nipple. GSG said that wouldn’t be bad. Greg and Bryce’s corollary was that side-boob or rib-boob would similarly be okay, so long as you aren’t near a nipple. GSG pointed out that there is still sensitivity in these areas and, when coupled with rough hand-fondling, can be an unpleasant experience for a woman.
Clavicle
GSG likes this place. It’s safe and easy to conceal a hickey here. I asked the panel if they would prefer neck of clavicle if given the choice. It seemed as if the clavicle was a great compromise hickey location: dangerous enough that it leaves a mark but safe enough to conceal this mark from others. The panel agreed with clavicle and the following advice: if you’re making out with someone with a serious career or corporate job, give them a clavicle hickey instead of a neck one.
Inner thigh
The panel immediately reacted to this proposition because of its proximity to the genitals. I pointed out the appeal: it’s an area of sensitivity and well concealed. Upon further reflection, it’s also one of the fleshier parts of the body, and thus easier and more fun to bite, suck on and play with. Bryce agreed that an inner thigh hickey was fine but GSG urged us to remember that the inner thigh could hurt as well. However, once she backed that statement up with the fact it could make horseback riding the next day difficult, I ceased to take this argument seriously.
At this point I decided to ask GSG to just name the parts of the body that are too painful (kick someone in the face painful) for hickeys. She said basically our list thus far: breasts and inner thigh near the genitals. Greg asked about the clitoris and GSG affirmed, that would be painful, too.
Upper body / shoulder
GSG didn’t know what the point of a hickey there would be. It’s not as fleshy or pleasurable as the neck.
Penis
Given the amount of chatter that Greg and Ryan had concerning clitoral hickeys, I felt it would be hypocritical to want to bite a woman there and like that if they themselves didn’t want a penal hickey. Greg, however, said he would welcome such a gift. I disagreed, citing the longstanding male complaint about women, teeth and penises. Bryce just didn’t think a penal hickey was possible, but I guessed it was considering there was enough skin that could be nuzzled. GSG likened such an act to Lorena Bobbit’s infamous assault. Nevertheless, Greg said he has had only “awesome” experiences with women’s teeth near his junk. Bryce was on my side on this one: “If you’re making out with my penis, teeth off.” Greg pointed out that teeth near a penis is virtually a necessary condition of getting a blow job, but I added that it was not a sufficient condition: biting the dick region differs greatly from performing fellatio.
How to: The panel elaborated on how to give a hickey.
Step 1: Make out with someone’s cheek, then move your tongue down to her chin
I asked what the hickey recipient is doing while you are kissing them not on their mouth. Obviously they can’t kiss you back at the same time. It would be weird to talk. Greg said that at this point, your partner is “enjoying the moment.”
Next step: start to move up, towards the ear, but don’t go all the way up to the ear. Just tease as if you are. Then go down to the neck, to “the jugular” like “the vampires.”
At this point we got into debate on whether teeth are necessary for a hickey. Ryan said that he chewed. I said that hickeys arose from breaking capillaries, which sounds like it requires teeth to break. Greg insisted all that was necessary was suction. Teeth can be used, he added, but only to tease. Teeth would leave teeth marks or remove flesh, not produce hickeys. I argued that, when I suck my thumb, a hickey does not appear. Greg said thumbs are different. Thumbs are used to being sucked, they are “worn out.” Necks, however, are still susceptible to hickeys since they don’t get sucked as often. Also necks have more blood since it’s near “your jugular.”
I sucked my hand and no hickey ever came, though I am aware it wouldn’t have come after such a brief period of sucking. But still, it didn’t have the same pleasurable feeling I get when I receive a hickey. I posited that a reserve of body fat is needed in a place for it to get a hickey. “Skinny” places don’t get hickeys. Upon reflection, I meant to say “fleshy” places, as necks aren’t fat so much as they are fleshy.
I asked Greg if he ever kissed someone so skinny or non-fleshy that a hickey was impossible. He said skinny girls were easier since you just need to suck skin and not fat and skin. The skin, he stressed, was the important element. Thus, since all girls have skin, there is no one too skinny for a hickey.
As a demonstration, Greg started very intensely sucking the skin in between his skin and forefinger, as if trying to pull something open with his lips. Sure enough, after only about 15-20 seconds of toothless suction, a red circle appeared on his hand. Bryce tried the same thing with the same part of his hand, but not as intensely as Greg had. Bryce used teeth but I did not see a hickey appear.
We thus concluded that sucking, not biting, is what makes a hickey. Bryce added, however, that he likes the sensation of nibbling as the hickey goes on, even if it is not necessary.
I asked how long suction needs to go on for before a hickey will come. Greg responded “until you taste [blood]” but then said, “about a minute.” Bryce added that once the person you are giving a hickey to realizes that they’re getting a hickey, they jerk back a little bit. That’s not only fun but also lets you know that your work is about done.
I then asked what you’re supposed to do when someone is giving you a hickey. None of us had good answers for this. Basically lay back and enjoy the moment was the consensus.
Ryan then added that he didn’t understand what the point of hickeys was. Bryce said we give hickeys for the same reason we make out, but I disagreed. We make out because it feels good but we give hickeys because they’re dangerous. Hickeys force us to deal with tomorrow who we were today. It gives kissing consequences, which heightens the situation. I said it’s like drunk dialing, Bryce said it’s like a day-long STD and Greg said it was a scarlet letter.
On Bryce’s analogy, he dubbed hickeys “STMs” or Sexually Transmitted Marks. I agreed that they were essentially that, but whereas no one wants an STD, people could enjoy an STM. But upon reflection I agree generally people don’t want STMs once they’re not in the moment. It’s like being naked not while having sex. As well, there are probably people who wear their STDs with some pride as badges of sexual promiscuity.
The panel did not agree with my analysis on hickeys being a way for people kissing in the moment to mess with our sober future selves. Instead, Bryce and Greg said we get and give hickeys only because it feels good. Even if they didn’t leave marks, Greg would like hickeys.
Lastly, Bryce shared some prehistoric history of kissing that he learned from the Jealousy of Man. Back in cavepeople days, mothers would chew up food for children and spit it in their mouths. Fathers would get jealous of this and shove their mouths in their wives’ mouths as they were about to feed their children.
I said that didn’t sound right. GSG said she’s seen people snowball food and it is gross.
The Panel: Gun Street Girl, Krazy Kristina, Bryce, Rudy Gilman, Dr. Goldstein and Greg.
The Debate: Should illness stop you from making out? Bryce said that he was willing to take some chances with microbes while Rudy said that he avoids girls who may have germs. Bryce was careful to say that he would avoid mono or a strong flu, but colds were no disincentive. He also didnt want snot flowing out of their noses and defined "too sick to make out" as "too sick for work". According to Bryce, any girl who is well enough to show up to work is well enough to make out.
Rudy said that his limited number of sick days at work made them too valuable to lose to illness caused by making out. He'd prefer to spend them on actual vacations. I argued that the whole point of working is to enjoy life, so why not enjoy life in the short period of time we have here, consequences be damned? Rudy responded by saying that he can still enjoy life, making out on vacation, and that enjoyment would be greater than being sick and/or a makeout with a sick girl. I asked whether this means philosophically Rudy would prefer 2 ho-hum days to 1 day of pleasure and 1 of pain. Rudy responded by saying the dichotomy was flawed: that he could have 1 day of pleasure on the beach with a non-sick girl and skip the day of pain.
I question whether or not passing up a sick girl guarantees a well one down the line. While I agree that when you're sick you're less likely to attract someone, I'd take the sick girl because there are too few opportunities in life and thus we should grab as many as possible before the well of youth dries up. Bryce goes even further and says if he really likes a girl, he'd take 1 day of pleasure for two of pain. He points out that, in the moment, it's difficult to stop yourself for a reason like illness. Emotion dominates reason and, if flirtation is already in motion, it's less about the easy act of not kissing someone than it is about the harder action of hitting the brakes.
I then asked if you yourself were sick, would that stop you from kissing other people. Bryce said he would warn girls but once they accept the risk he'd have at it. Liz would do the same. I said no one takes these warnings seriously. Bryce himself said that he responds to a warning of germs with "I have a rock hard immune system."
Dr. Goldstein said that early on in a coupling, people will gladly ignore germs to kiss due the novelty and excitement. Later on in a relationship, illness is a frequent excuse from intimacy, used when you just plain don't want to make out with somebody. I argued that, while one can use illness earlier on, later on a boyfriend has an obligation to kiss despite germs. Early makeouts are just about pleasure, so the maximization of pleasure may reasonably be found to come from abstinence over illness. Later makeouts, in the context of a relationship, are about feelings and thus it may be insulting to someone's feelings not to kiss them.
Krazy Kristina points out that, as an opera singer, she places an even higher premium on not getting sick and thus would value the opportunity even higher to avoid germs. Rudy tried to say that his attorney job had the same premium on wellness, but I disagreed. All jobs are done better by well people than sick people, but certain ones like singer or doctor really require wellness. Dr. Goldstein agreed, though noting that if she makes more people sick that ultimately does mean more business for her.
Bryce points out that he feels bad after getting sick from "floozies", girls he is not particularly attracted to. But after kissing infected women he fancies, he feels on balance happy with himself despite the exposure.
I then noted that, similar to giving hickeys, I enjoy "marking my territory" by giving girl whatever cold I may have. Hearing them describe my symptoms to me now that they are their symptoms too makes me feel like we've really connected and I've left a temporary mark. GSG wonders whether it's clear whether a girl's illness could be traced directly to you. I noted that identical symptoms coupled with the specific timing of their contraction of the illness could be a hint. No other panelists did this on purpose. In all fairness, neither do I, but I do take a small bit of pleasure when it does happen.
Bryce finds mucous a deal-breaker. I find it to be adorable for its awkwardness and unpretentiousness, kind of like what girls see in Michael Cera. Dr. Goldstein and Krazy Kristina point out that sick people have "sick breath" which is itself undesirable. I've never noticed that phenomenon.
Bryce asks if people have tasted someone else's mucous and found it sweet. No one in the panel but me admitted to tasting mucous, though Dr. Goldstein says we likely all have. I found mucous to taste salty.
The Review: The panel reviewed contagious illnesses that can be transmitted through kissing and discussed to what degree we wanted to avoid them.
Thrush - If one performs cunnilingus on a woman with a yeast infection, they could develop an oral yeast infection which itself can be orally transmitted. Krazy Kristina advises strongly against catching this, though notes that it is treatable with pills. You get white stuff all over your mouth and it looks like the skin around your mouth breaks out. The ladies on the show point out that, though the symptoms are gross, the worst part is the knowledge that your kissing partner has recently gone down on somebody with a yeast infection. I point out that if the yeast infection belonged to you and your partner went down on you, thus contracting it, it would be hypocritical of you not to kiss them despite the thrush. GSG wonders why yeast infection people would choose to receive oral sex. KK reminds her that sometimes a girl doesn't know.
Mono - No one on the panel would make out with a super hot person who had mono besides people who have biological immunity from mono. Those people noted, however, that the symptoms of mono like lack of energy or night sweats may dissuade them from making out with such people. Dr. Goldstein said that more than one strain exists so it's hard to be that secure in your biological immunity. I asked if a panelist had mono, would they be okay with kissing someone who doesn't have it and risk transmitting it so long as they were warned. Bryce said he'd be okay with that. I briefly discussed that there may be torts liability involved if you negligently transmitted a sexual disease. GSG shared the story of Ron Mexico.
The Flu - Bryce said he would kiss a flu victim if he himself had just gotten over the flu, thus leaving him immune. Dr. Goldstein said she would if there was a shortage of flu vaccine, thereby using the kissing partner as a makeshift flu vaccine. I'm not a doctor, but that sounds like an awful idea. Bryce was quicker to point out that this doesn't sound like it would work (conversely, I think I'd only want to kiss a flu victim if and only if I did have the vaccine). I also pointed out that it requires a lot more forethought than I ever put into my kisses. Rudy pointed out that he has adult onset asthma and thus is particularly wary about contracting the flu.
Cold Sores / Herpes - No one on the panel said they would risk contracting herpes. Rudy said he might if they weren't showing and he didn't know about it, which makes me wonder how he'd consent to do it. I point out that it's not always easy to tell who has it since the sores look like pimples and it's impolite to ask a girl you may kiss if she has herpes.
Make Out Questions With a Real Doctor:
How many people do you have to make out with before, statistically, you've probably contracted herpes or something? - I had heard that if you have sex with a certain (fairly low) number of people, statistically you probably have contracted HPV. I wondered if the same was true with making out. Dr. Goldstein said that during flu season, the number of partners is fairly small before you've likely caught the flu. As for herpes simplex virus 1, since 75% of people have it, the number of partners you need to kiss before contracting it is also fairly small. No specific numbers though.
How do you know if someone has herpes? - It looks like an ulcer on the lip though it can be anywhere on the mouth. It usually looks scabby. They look very much like a pimple.
How clean is a human mouth? - Much dirtier than other parts of the body. This is why when a person bites another person they are at significant risk of disease.
Germ-wise, what is cleaner, sloppy thirds or first base? - First base is much cleaner germ-wise than sloppy thirds.
Are you better off not using tongue in an effort to minimize germs? - No, any germs that are on the tongue are also on the lips.
Would mouthwash reduce the transmission of germs during a make-out? - Yes. Reduce, but not eliminate. But it's not just for bad breath germs, it also works for the germs we'd be concerned about in making out. Also, Dr. Goldstein would not recommend using mouthwash to reduce germs in sloppy thirds by applying it to the genitals.
What is the most preventable making out transmittable disease? - Flus and colds can be easily prevented by washing your hands more and avoiding sick people.
If we've already been close to sick people, does kissing do any additional damage? If we've already kissed a little bit, does kissing more do any additional damage? - Not really. Most of these germs are airborne illnesses, so breathing the same air is what transmits them. Kissing / additional kissing does not really transmit them moreso. This does not apply, however, for herpes.
When are you the most contagious? - When you have a sore throat.
What can I do to minimize the risk that I will transmit germs to someone else? - I suggested Vitamin C or Cold-Eze, but Dr. Goldstein said nothing short of not breathing the same air as someone would do the trick. The same is true for your partner, as not much can be done to resist catching something when kissing an infected partner. Dr. Goldstein recommends making out with medical professionals since they are required to be up to date on their shots.
What are these two flu vaccines I've heard about? - One is for the regular seasonal flu and one is for swine flu. They are not substitutes for each other, they are both very different. The CDC has a website about them. One of the vaccines become available in mid-October and concerns exist about adequate availability.
How can you reduce the transmission of herpes? - Making out while someone does not have a breakout leaves you relatively safe. You can ask your partner if they have any tingling or burning sensation on their lips, as these are warning signs of herpes.
Why don't we just put Valtrex in the water supply, thereby reducing herpes outbreaks without side effects? - It's expensive. GSG doesn't like this excuse.
Does kissing the nose, ears, etc... leave a person vulnerable to additional diseases? - Ear infections don't come from kissing ears, but from a nose infection that traveled to the ear internally. Licking an ear enough, however, could result in swimmer's ear.
Making Out is a podcast and blog about French kissing, hosted by Cowboy Will. New episodes of the podcast are available every week on this website and on the iTunes Music Store.
About Cowboy Will
Cowboy Will is a lawyer in his late twenties. He lives in Brooklyn.
About the Panelists
They're like a drunker, smarter McLaughlin group.
Buffy started off as a fan and became part of the show.
Bryce has big glasses and lives in Brooklyn.
Dave Grabiner is a popular standup comic, performing in New York.
Dr. Lizardo is a Nine Inch Nails fan.
Greg is an artist from Texas who lives in Brooklyn.
The podcast may make more sense if you know the following:
1) Cowboy Will wears a cowboy hat during the program. It is from Cavender's Boot City. Bryce and Greg, who are actual Texans, begin each program admiring his hat.
2) The podcast is about tongue wrestling, not sex. Every time sex is mentioned on the program, coins are audibly thrown into the "sex jar" immediately thereafter.
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